Quantum Thinking + The Way Forward

Speaker 2: 00:04

Timeless. The human experience through quantum lens. Hello, and welcome to the final episode in series one of Timeless, the podcast with me, Isabel Soden. And myself Clive Hyland. So to finish this series, we are looking at the way forward. But before we go then, let's recap. Where have we been in this great Odyssey? We started with the science of quantum, looking at physics and neuroscience in particular, and then we went up in our spaceship and looked at the universe through a quantum lens, and then we came right back down. Did we descend in a spaceship or some other sort of spaceship will do for now? Okay, great. Looking at implications on organizations, and finally we've arrived here to look at where we're going and how to move forward with this thinking.

Speaker 1: 01:02

And I guess the dominant um factor that influences that future for me, in my mind, is AI. Because it's gonna have such a huge impact on the environment that we face organizations that are already seeing major changes coming about. Um and that is gonna accelerate, you know, not slow down. So um this is not a nice to have philosophical debate. This is a what are we gonna do about a debate?

Speaker 2: 01:33

All right, so what are we gonna do about it?

Speaker 1: 01:36

I knew you were gonna ask me that. Okay, so why have we i it's basically the question is why uh why have we bothered with these conversations? And the fundamental message is because we have to change our thinking. So hence the phrase quantum thinking. So what the hell is quantum thinking? I touched on it before, but to reinforce it is really about learning to use all of our brains and not be preoccupied with what is effectively a rational processing and our preoccupation with what we do and behaviour and results. And it's to equally explore the other parts of the brain which bring us things like you know, instinctive, safety, emotional connection, imagination, all other things that can't be handed over to AI. So AI is a reality, and yeah, I think it's good to embrace it, but to do so in a from a point of view of understanding and having thought through the implications for the future. Okay, so the context for me is you know, it will change the rules of competitive um activity in the business world, certainly, and it'll change the rules of how we make sense of human life. So is to look at that in a positive way and sort of say, okay, the key point for us to understand is that the environment that we've built is one that's been co-created by us and is therefore not an independent reality, which means it can be changed. It's not something we're stuck with, it's just the way that we have learned through evolution to experience the universe. These icons that allow us to interface to the real existence of the quantum realm. And there's this curious irony, isn't there? Because people's automatic reaction be, well, what the hell is a quantum quantum realm? Which we've tried to explain. But apparently it's the unexplained that's the most real thing that we're dealing with here. So everything else is up for grabs. Now we can't say at the moment exactly. Yeah. So I'm saying everything else is up for grab because there's this irony around we think we've dealt with reality in what we're experiencing now in terms of matter. And there's this weird stuff out there which is called quantum energy. Right. More likely to be the truth is that the reality is the quantum world, and we have constructed an illusion which is the world of matter.

unknown: 04:10

Okay.

Speaker 1: 04:11

Takes a bit of head getting around, right? Does that sit okay?

Speaker 2: 04:15

It does. It actually made me breathe a sigh of relief. Okay. I don't even want to know why.

Speaker 1: 04:20

So something connected, yeah? Yeah. You know, a new thought pattern that worked for you. So basically it's saying, look, that doesn't mean to say we're all crazy and you know we've mismanaged the world that's out there. It's saying that's what we learned. But we're saying to be stuck in that particular view of the world and our environment is gonna cause us to miss major opportunities for growth and the survival of our species. Right? So it's about, all right. So what is the the relearning and in fact the unlearning that we have to do, getting rid of our all the assumptions and biases and the limitations of our belief systems, which only allow us to see the world in a particular way.

Speaker 2: 04:60

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 05:00

So quantum thinking is all about allowing our brains to flow, you know, allowing imagination to work, enabling the brain time to spot new creative patterns by which we can understand our experience and the world that sits beyond it. So we can then interface with it in different ways. And the belief that it's a bit like ripples going out in the pool, you know, that's a nice representation of the way the energy works. It doesn't work in a straight line, it's about ripples. And by creating those ripples of new thought, we will create new connections. And frankly, we don't know where that's gonna take us. But all of that represents new potential that we have not yet locked into.

Speaker 2: 05:43

And you I mean, is that as simple as giving our brains a bit more space?

Speaker 1: 05:48

Yes. It is, you know. But we've to do that, what we've got to recognize is that we've got to unlearn all our I'm not saying stop doing them, but realize the limitations of our current thinking patterns. Yeah. And the preoccupations of the way we see things now. In brain terms, what that means is we have a load of neural circuits that cause our brains to operate in a certain way. All right. Now, unless we do some rethinking, they'll carry on working that way and we'll end up in the same place. Yeah. And that's what we're finding, right? You know, just little relatable examples. You know, you listen to 60s music, for an example, which which I would do, they are calling for the same things there that we are trying to call for now. Okay, but nothing has changed in 60 years, fundamentally. So it's a time now for changing our thought patterns. And thought patterns and mindset is where the change process starts. Okay, so exercise our broader brain, allow more time for imagination, for organizing our thought process in such a way that explores all sorts of possibilities and connections. All right? And in the science sense, you do that again. I said in an earlier earlier discussion, about that's where we create hypotheses that can then be tested in science. But it's much broader than that. You know, it's this broader understanding of the human experience, including the artistic experience and the religious experience, etc., etc. Bringing it all to the table. We can open up all sorts of areas of human potential there, but we can't nail down what they are yet. But we do know that where we are stuck at the moment is not working, and we have to know that our time is limited as a species if we don't get to a better place. Okay? So quantum thinking is like a freedom of thought.

Speaker 2: 07:37

Yes.

Speaker 1: 07:38

But it doesn't just happen by relaxing, it's also about recognizing the biases that you carry with you, not intentional, not sinister, but you know, the limitations of your own thought patterns are already in place.

Speaker 2: 07:51

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 07:51

And you but it's only by playing with that creative type uh experience that you can actually learn. Because we need experiential data. Now, it's not something you can just think through, you've got to get in the water and swim to understand it.

Speaker 2: 08:06

You see, yes, I I think what I'm willing you towards is something tangible for a listener to go and right, okay. This is what I will plug in in order to, you know, I this is compelling, and I I'm I'm sold enough to to have a go at this quantum thinking. Give me some steps, and actually telling me that the stakes of the human species depend on you doing this. I suddenly go, Oh, look at me, frozen in you know, that feels overwhelming.

Speaker 1: 08:39

Too big, yeah.

Speaker 2: 08:39

Uh too big. But then you come down to this level and you say, Oh, play with it. Yeah. And yeah, just explore different ways of thinking.

Speaker 1: 08:52

See, it's ironic, we've even put creativity in a box some way. And what I mean by that is I can th I can imagine a lot of people thinking, well, I'm not in a creative role. I'm not a creative, so I don't need to do that. We're all creatives, potentially. And we've got to get over our hang-ups about not being able to play and experience ourselves as human beings.

Speaker 2: 09:11

No, absolutely. I mean, in our line of work, which is essentially getting everyone to understand the nature of play, and they are all inherently we are all inherently playful if we'd allow ourselves to be. And the idea, you know, life is a creative act, it's a creative project. And, you know, to be in the moment, living it and doing, and as you say as well, just get in and do it. You can this you can't plan through this. You cannot, yeah, you can't write this down as a like, oh, here we go, I have a full program of works, and then I'll send that downriver and hope that Santa Claus gets the letter. Like, no, you have to get in and do it and play in it.

Speaker 1: 09:48

Yeah, you do, because precisely because you it's only by experiencing it that things like you know energetic connection come alive and they become real, you know, what they may be difficult to relate to until you've experienced it, like a lot of things. So, you know, experience is another form of information. We need that information built into our brain so we can then start responding to it. And in a practical sense, it means you know, people get in over their hang-ups about having to be seen in a certain way and actually experience themselves first and last as human beings, and not as a job description that's only allowed to do certain things. So that expend extends our sense of self and who we are and gives us scope for experimentation, which is vital. And we're not saying you know, organizations are spending every minute of the day, you know, experimenting, of course not. There's times for experimentation and there are times for execution, you know, in other words, getting things done. But we need to spend more time to explore ourselves and what else we have to give.

Speaker 2: 10:44

There's something lovely as well about the the energetic experience of something that it does have to be felt. And it can't necessarily be seen, but it will be felt, and you have to engage in that space in order to start.

Speaker 1: 10:59

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:60

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:00

Precisely, you know, because you can't you can't necessarily code or articulate that sort of experience. Yeah. But you can feel it, and then it goes into, you know, you know, we've seen it, haven't we? We've seen people come alive in these sorts of sessions where they play around with the the idea of who they are, yeah, and they really enjoy it. And then they have to go back to work. And it's like we have to overcome that. It's like how what what are you just discovered? How can you take that back into work? So you've got a bigger vision ver version of yourself going back into that business space.

Speaker 2: 11:32

Absolutely. And but people's lights literally like dial up, and it's the permission granting of that to be, you know, welcomed in every space.

Speaker 1: 11:43

Yes, absolutely. And the more that's done collectively, the more you learn about each other. You know, we've seen situations then we where you know so-called bosses, you know, are allowed to play and are noticed by other people who then start to see them as human beings. Yeah. Rather than just bosses. So there's a payoff here, not only just for you know, the leaders themselves, but also for the people who relate to the leaders. It goes right through the organizations, and we see first and foremost human beings, not jobs. Yeah? So that's the fundamental of it for me. So it's about so quantum thinking is a change of mindset in a way. You know, we have brains that respond to minds. You know, that's my view. If we create a different mindset, we'll create new neural pathways in the brain, which in terms will give us self-reinforcing. That'll give us a greater capacity to think imaginatively and differently and all that stuff, right? So we engage with that and then we see where that journey takes us. But it can only be better than what we got, because what we've got we're not leaving behind. We're just saying it's too limited, and a lot of it's going to be taken over by technology. So this is all about saying, okay, let's go up the value chain now and see what we can bring to the piece that actually will take us to another level of performance.

Speaker 2: 12:59

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 12:59

And part of that is tackling the whole world of the invisible, if you like, of the quantum and the unconscious, and getting more serious about that and not dismissing it because we can't control it.

Speaker 2: 13:09

Yeah, and I've been almost to tw to to to reframe it rather than saying it's invisible as if it's like the negative of seeing, it's the felt rather than the seen.

Speaker 1: 13:19

Absolutely. Yeah, but you know, we tend to be, you know, we touched on this thing about the difference between sensory perception and sensory deception. And we are led first and foremost by that which we see, whether we see it externally or internally, you know, we tend to believe the stuff that we see, and if we can't see it, we tend not to believe it. But now we have to recognise that's a limitation. Yeah, it's got us to where we are, and it's very important in an evolutionary sense. But you know, we only see certain things. There's so much that we can't see. So now we've almost got to think beyond what we can see.

Speaker 2: 13:49

And can you say categorically that the information felt by your body is more aligned with the truth? Like less less susceptible to deception.

Speaker 1: 14:04

Well, the the word I would use, yeah, I prefer the last bit. The the comment about truth is tricky, all right? Because again, I keep saying there's no independent truth.

Speaker 2: 14:12

We did that.

Speaker 1: 14:13

There's yeah, there's only perception and belief. Yeah. Okay. So perception is all about the way that we bring information into our experience, bring bring mind. So we build all these models that we've talked about, you know, that allow us to capture all this information in a way that's meaningful to us and meaningful quickly. Yeah. So we don't have to keep working and out, working and out, working and out. So and a lot of those models are you know intensely visual, right? But equally, then, how we respond to those models is all about belief. So we believe in the models and we believe in certain things that we need to do in in order to interact with our environment, you know, whether we're talking organization or universe. So this play between perception, which forms the basis of belief, which is more about our our reactions, that's the way that we deal with the world. And back to your point on you know, the body, that's part of that cycle. And what I'm saying is the body is is definitely honest. You know, it's honest about an experience, and we have to be aware of the way that we build an artificial reality in the cognitive space or thinking space of our brains, which may not be the reality that we're trying to deal with.

Speaker 2: 15:31

So it doesn't reflect the truth of the system.

Speaker 1: 15:33

Yeah, so uh a a simple example of that, you know, stop thinking of minds as being something that sit around our heads. You know, to me, the mind is an energetic dimension that sits right across the body. The body is a key player in that, in providing sensory intelligence, which the brain then works on to take to a more sophisticated level of understanding. You know, again, AI can't do that, it's not embodied. So, you know, it's another differentiator. But the reality is our concept of mind needs to be understood differently now because there's this good argument for saying why it should be partly supported by the technology that we can use. So another difference is okay, we've done everything we can with the thought patterns that have been around for the last couple of hundred years. Right? Now it's time to move on. What's the next phase? And that's what we're trying to call quantum thinking, free freedom of thought, exploration of thought.

Speaker 2: 16:31

Yeah. Is it the last 200 years in the West or globally? I mean that is it.

Speaker 1: 16:37

Oh yeah, I think to be fair, yeah, my comment is much more faced towards the West. I mean, there's there's there's less of this um industrialization of thinking that uh when you go out towards the east and they're more in touch, I think, with culture and and ancient wisdom.

Speaker 2: 16:52

And a sense of the collective strikes.

Speaker 1: 16:54

Yes, yeah, in in particular areas, yeah, communities are uh very strong. Yeah, undoubtedly. So yeah, you know, you you're right. Um most of my comments I think are directed at the West, but of course, a lot of the East is starting to move into the same thinking patterns, and maybe we can uh help them to avoid making the same mistakes so we leap forward rather than crash through the same barriers.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Do we want to talk again about serendipity? To me, it's possibly a kind of consequence of something really that has very significant impact at its root and I and I think this is an area that threatens I've I've see synchronicities or patterns, or you know uh you think of someone and then they call that afternoon and or you dreamt of them and then but what what what is that relationship and you know does it I mean is it is it kooky? Is it entanglement theory in action? Is it you know, talk to me.

Speaker 1: 18:03

I think it's a bit late in the day to start talking about entanglement theory now in in this. I think people's cooked brains probably can't they will be overcooked if we do any more. But you're right. None for people who understand that reference, we you are right. And you know, but fundamentally the principle is like first of all, first of all, there is the psychological element, which is associative thinking. Okay, so as we open our minds up um and we force them less into attentional mode, which means we're focused on something in particular, you know, stuff we have to learn or have to do, it freezes up to be f to become more creative. And the basis of creativity is association, where the mind bounces around and just finds natural connections and patterns that emerge. Okay. So one of the explanations for the illustrations you gave, like you know, somebody coming into your life, you know, uh, etc., can be that we've pieced together a form of thinking, associative thinking at a subconscious level that never came to conscious consciousness, right? So to us it can seem like it's a coincidence, but in fact it's a result of associative thought, right? So that's one level. But then at the quantum level, there's another level which is all about that we touched upon, which is saying, look, if you understand the way that the energy works, the fundamental of the universe is all energy operates on attraction or repulsion, yeah, resonance or dissonance. And you can see that as you allow your mind and brain to go into a natural form of operation, you open up opportunities for further attraction because you make the brain more available to the information that's that's spinning around it. Okay. So just like in the bloodstream, you know, a blood cell will open up if it senses nutrients in the bloodstream, but it'll close down if it senses toxins. All right. Makes sense. Like your mouth's open, so I think that was uh that was uh yeah, that was a good moment in that. It's naturally a reflexive jaw drop. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 20:09

Wow, I didn't know that.

Speaker 1: 20:11

So fundamentally the mind can operate the same way. It can open up when it doesn't feel fearful and forced, it can close down when it does. All right. So we're trying to open up the brain, open up the mind, and get to a position where we we can connect with more information that it I believe is available to us. And it will find its way. And it's coming back to like the commentary we heard earlier on about artists and things like that. And they say they don't really know where it comes from, but it comes from somewhere, and that's why you have to operate in the moment. You can't plan your creative activity, you have to go with it when it's available. And it's always thinking, well, where the hell did that come from? And I don't think the brain explanation is enough. There's something else going on. So my my sense of serendipity is very much about it's about that. It's almost like that matrix of energetic connections that we can either be open to or not open to. And the more open we are to it, it will find us. Because all of these coincidences, I think, are just associative connections that come together, but they're no longer thought patterns, they give us something. You know, like the fact I can't believe the way that these suggestions for books and things appear. And they're nothing to do with algorithms because they weren't things I was looking for, right? And people come into my life just when I'm thinking, you know, I could do it to talk into one of these, and suddenly they appear or reappear. And you sort of think, how can that be? And you know, it's beyond for me, it's beyond coincidence, and I can't prove that. We're into the world of no etics here, and we won't try and understand that at this stage.

Speaker 2: 21:45

But that's both of us having brought in an idea that we haven't covered in the last episode. Yes, I know. So we're equal.

Speaker 1: 21:52

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh my god, we'll have to do another one then.

Speaker 2: 21:57

We've twisted.

Speaker 1: 22:01

Exactly. But but for now, yeah, I th uh it's it's part of this concept of we are part of something bigger. And I think that's just one piece of evidence in inverted commoners uh commas that you know there's something bigger going on, and we have chosen to ignore it. It's time to stop ignoring it.

Speaker 2: 22:21

Well you say chosen to ignore it, but then I think about how stressed we are, you know, the sensory overload and our brains constantly in this kind of threat detection fight or flight. And our our stressed brains are designed to close down and not be receptive to this stuff.

Speaker: 22:41

Absolutely.

Speaker 2: 22:42

Yeah. And so regulating or like downregulating our nervous systems and getting out of that cortisol spike circuit. You know, rest, reset, moments of joy, that in turn will help us to open our brains. That's something that uh anyone can actively do as a sort of, yeah, okay, I'm you know, again, a kind of exploration of this.

Speaker 1: 23:09

Just well, the brain is predictive, right? And it's a lovely reinforcement of what we were saying sh just a short while ago, which is it's back to the cell, and now the cell responds to its environment. It's the same principle. It's like if we have brains that are constantly aware of the toxicity of our environment, both emotional and and you know, real in the sense of poisons, then they're they are going to close down to cope with that. Okay. If we can build environments where people feel less threatened, you know, e.g. in working environments, they will open up just like the cell. The rules never change, whether you're talking different species, human beings, the universe, the rules are the same. And what we're starting to do now is put that pattern of rules together in a way that includes the invisible and the unconscious and the quantum.

Speaker 2: 23:58

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 24:00

We've got a great responsibility here, you know, to the species. I think this is my final comment because you know, we acknowledge that we are children of the species that have come before us, but we're also the parents of future generations. So it's up to us to carry on this information and information seeking and learning that is going to be crucial to the species in the future. And it's how do we do our bit to contribute to that? Mic drop?

unknown: 24:31

Definitely.

Speaker 1: 24:35

Good point to end, I think.

Speaker 2: 24:36

Yeah, yes. Sorry for mmming halfway through. That's a load. As is my way. I'm sure you'll miss them when they're gone. Wonderful. And well, and I think, yeah, that is a wrap on series one. And if you have enjoyed it, do let us know. We are planning a series two, and our broad vision for that is to bring people into our conversations. Um and we want a really diverse set of points of view, people from different disciplines. So if there is anyone you would love to hear on this podcast, please do um drop us names. If you would like to come on the podcast, do also get in touch. Um and I think the last thing to say is thank you so much for coming with us on this journey. We have loved meandering through this quantum space. Yeah. And we hope you have too.

Speaker: 25:33

Hopefully it makes sense for people and inspires them. So let's see what happens.