Consciousness

Speaker 1: 00:04

Timeless, the human experience through aQuantum Lens. Hello and welcome to Timeless, a podcast with me, Isabel Soben.

Speaker: 00:16

And myself, Clive Hyland.

Speaker 1: 00:18

This is part two of our exploration of consciousness. Take a breath.

Speaker: 00:28

The only good thing is you you need a bit of space to take that on. Well, so does anyone else that's listening, you know. So it's like these are natural pauses that make sense. But it's big stuff, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 00:38

Yeah, it's huge. And I I'm going back to the sort of I think I've mentioned it before, Aldous Huxley's doors of perception, this idea that, you know, on his masculine trip and he's seeing the iris and the the vividness of the colours. And like to me, his you know, the veils of that, you know, linear sensory perception has dropped, and he's seeing things more in that energetic realm. And and his, you know, his justification for why those veils exist on our sense of reality is because we have to get on with chopping the wood and finding the food and finding the mates and raising the offspring. And so I mean I put it to you that quantum is a deeply dangerous field to explore because we'll all be levitating.

Speaker: 01:33

I don't know, I don't know about the levitating because that's material, isn't it?

Speaker 1: 01:38

Conscious levitating.

Speaker: 01:41

Well, we don't know where we'll go is the true answer, but we know that what we're currently backing is very limited. And it makes sense, it doesn't make any sense to keep hanging on to something that you know is at best only a partial answer, if it's an answer at all. Yeah. So you know, we've yeah, back to this perceptual system thing. I think a nice way of thinking about it because it must be very hard for people to sort of say, look, so you're saying to me that consciousness creates our reality, okay? Um, and therefore, when we're not conscious of something, it doesn't exist. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, as I said earlier on. I'm saying that that's the way we present it to ourselves. We call them representations, that's how the brain works, it brings information in in a way that represents the outside world. Yeah, and that's selective to our survival, right? So it's not like if we as a basic animal, for instance, have to bring information in, the key driver for the species is to survive, right? So it's not a case of you know, how do we bring everything in because I've got to write an essay? It's a case of how do I bring information into this brain that is gonna help me to survive. Yeah. Now, a good example of that could be so the world of colour, for instance, you know, and and colour, which we know does not exist in the universe, right? There is no color in the universe, it's grey. All colour is created in our minds.

Speaker 1: 03:02

Do we know that it's grey?

Speaker: 03:03

Oh, yeah, well, yeah, we say it's colorless, so it's a nice simple way of saying that, I guess, right? There's no sound in the universe, etc. etc. So we bring it all in, but where colour is interesting to reflect on it. So we then have to find out, for instance, if we're a basic animal trying to consume food, right? Yeah, so we want to avoid stuff that is gonna poison us, and we have all sorts of perceptual systems, including taste and smell, that help us avoid that. But color plays a role because it reinforces what we're looking for, right? Yeah, so by having nice colour patterns, it gives us an ability to follow choice. So, for instance, we may love red food, we haven't got to think about it, we can go for it because we've tried it before, we didn't die. So we are motivated to enjoy it because it's gonna keep us alive. Yeah. Okay. And it's if you then extend that right across the conversation we're having is about saying that's why we bring information from the universe to us in such a way that will help us deal with it, engage with it. Yeah, and what we see is not the same as other species necessarily see. Yeah. And we sort of accept that, yeah, but yet we think it's real. Yeah, it doesn't make sense. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So nobody can tell me that a dog sees the same things that I do, you know, and certainly a bat doesn't.

Speaker 1: 04:21

But they categorically do not.

Speaker: 04:23

No, absolutely do not, you know, and it's you know, um vision's another great example, you know. We know that um, you know, for us, we have in some ways got the best vision of all species. And that sounds sounds wrong because other people say, oh, element, eagles can see farther and all that stuff. Yeah. But it's that we've got the richness, you know, the multidimensional aspect of vision that allows us to see the things that we need to see to survive. Right. Whereas a lot of animals will have just what they need to survive, you know, for an eagle's distance. Obviously, for something else, it could be movement. Yes. But we have elements of all of those things, yes, because we've built that intelligence as the species has evolved. Yeah. And on the back of previous species, right? So everything is as a perceptual system that is fine-tuned to our survival. Yeah, and that's our interface with the universe. But it's just so different to the way that we were thinking, you know, even yesterday. Quite recently, yeah. About five minutes ago. Yeah. But they they're great conversations. You know, that's the whole point on this, is sort of say, right, we're we're going to declare the answer in the last episode. Uh, unfortunately, I think we'll need a bit more time than that. Yes, day two. Maybe even a few more species, you know, but for the next billion years. So it is really about us saying the it's the conversation that's important for each of us, you know, to stay connected with this. And because it's don't put it aside because it's too difficult, because it's critical, and we can help each other with it.

Speaker 1: 06:01

Or I think as well, it's the conversation that's so important, and that to me is interdisciplinary as well. So we get oh, you know, I rem different disciplines get so hell-bent on proving almost their supremacy as a discipline of thought that they will dismiss all the thinking that they're built on. And you know, things aren't in dialogue and and the relationship of different different disciplines of science and then art as well, and uh it used to hold hands in a I feel like it used to hold hands in a more peaceable way than it does today. Or maybe we're having a renaissance again, but there was a time where you know science was king and everything else was naive.

Speaker: 06:46

We certainly because science rules you know the the the real scientist in my mind will acknowledge that science is about extending our boundaries of knowledge and understanding, but recognizing there are always boundaries. Some of the behavior and some of the arrogance that can creep in, intellectual arrogance, you know, is not reflecting the way that that should be.

Speaker 2: 07:06

Yeah.

Speaker: 07:07

So there needs to be a lot more respect for other forms of intelligence and information that we pull together. Yeah. Because basically we're all in this together, and no one no discipline, whether it's science, art, or something else, can give us total answers, but they can give us a perspective. You know, I and I'm talking about nonsense, I'm stalking talking about stuff that's really thought through and deserves its place at the table. Yeah. That's vital, I think, for our understanding. Um, and you know, and later on, obviously, we'll bring that a bit back more into the human experience itself.

Speaker 1: 07:38

Yeah, and it's just the pursuit of solutions to problems that we come across as a species, as a you know, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 07:45

Jest is is an interesting word there. But yeah, I mean, fundamentally everything is driven by our our our ability to survive. Yeah. Um, and so now we are saying, hold on a minute, what we're doing at the moment isn't necessarily incre increasing our survival chances.

Speaker 2: 08:04

Yeah.

Speaker: 08:04

So maybe that's the evolutionary spur that says to us we need to think again. Yeah. And maybe we always need some sort of evolutionary spur that's uh, you know, really at a grounded energetic level, and I'll come on to intelligence, uh intelligent energy in a moment.

Speaker 2: 08:21

Yeah.

Speaker: 08:21

Um, but maybe there's some sort of spur, you know, and that's why it started happening around about a hundred years ago, and we're gaining ground on it now.

Speaker 1: 08:28

But but it follows the pattern with which life has evolved.

Speaker: 08:32

You know, it is answering its own problem of of survival, you know, and finding the solutions and it goes far deeper than just the human species or even any species on Earth, because you know this is very again to some really interesting stuff. But you know, we can see things like sudden expansions in um explosions of evolution and things like that, how they're tied to to like orbits, orbits of planets around the sun, you know, and they tend to happen at certain times, particularly for instance when the earth is because it's an elliptical or orbit, right? Um when it's furthest away from the sun, evolution seems to speed up more. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Speaker 1: 09:11

Is this astrology?

Speaker: 09:13

Uh it's cosmology.

unknown: 09:14

What's the time?

Speaker: 09:15

Cosmology. So it's really about the cosmos, right? So um, so yeah, you know, it's it's it's scientifically underpinned, but you know, that we could we can back that up. You know, there was a time called the Cambrian explosion when there was a massive increase in the number of multicelled organisms around about half a billion years ago, something like that. Um, and you can track those things that often there's a connection between what's happening in the universe and what happens on Earth. And why wouldn't it be if you you know, I'm not into astrology, I've got to say that, right? Even though part of my argument, some astrologers sort of think, there you are, I told you I was right. It's what they do with that stuff that that bothers me, right? So I don't want to get get let's not go there. Let's no, no, we won't go into that piece, but nevertheless, it's just another indication of where we can't separate ourselves from the universe. Yeah, we dissociate it from it because it operates on very different timescales, right? But if you really wanted to put your head in an ice bucket, you'd have to cope with the the fact that you know the universe is timeless, that time is a concept only that that we've created and it's not real, it's not real. But I don't think we'll be able to crack that one in this conversation.

Speaker 1: 10:27

No, no, no. Stay tuned for a billion years. We've done that. Yeah, exactly.

Speaker: 10:32

We've got to have some longevity in this, haven't we, for God's sake?

Speaker 1: 10:35

Either a billion years or the next episode. I need to think about my pension, you know. Absolutely. God, how linear a material of you. Yeah. Um, the universe. So the intelligence inherent in the universe.

Speaker: 10:54

Yeah. Perfect. Perfect. Yeah. So, as I clearly have not thrown enough um complicated concepts at you yet, and you're having far too easy a time. I thought what we should one area which was very helpful for me in trying to get my head around this stuff was when I started to piece together my understanding of what I mean by an intelligent universe. Okay? Yeah. Now, um because once you buy into that concept, it opens up all sorts of different directions of thinking. Yeah. Um and the fundamental point of is that we need to think about information in a far broader sense. You know, I've sort of touched on this before, but it's really about that as human beings, we tend to think of information as just being something we think about or data. It's the cognitive stuff that we expect um share and explore. Okay. But you know, for information exists at a foundational level of the universe, you know, far before there were concepts or language or thought or anything else. Any source of change in the universe involves a change, an exchange of information. All right.

Speaker 1: 12:11

DNA.

Speaker: 12:12

For for instance, and even that came there to go before that. Any chemical reaction involves an exchange of information about the the metabolic structure effectively of each part, you know, each chemical that's coming together to create something new. Yeah. So at that basic level, for hydrogen and oxygen to come together and create something new, for instance, water, yeah, there's an exchange of information about the structure of each of the elements. Yes. Okay. So all energy carries information. It's just not the stuff that we would have registered it as as information. Yeah? Do you get me?

Speaker 1: 12:54

I do. I'm just thinking for the there is both the giver of information and the receiver of information.

Speaker: 13:01

So well, I I I guess it doesn't, it I don't think it matters you because it means that there's an interla interaction at a physical and chemical level where the information exchange enables a material exchange. You see what I mean? So oxygen and hydrogen coming together in the right proportions, you know, the H2O type stuff.

Speaker 2: 13:23

Yeah.

Speaker: 13:23

Really means that when they find that, they create something new. But that's enabled firstly by an exchange of information. Right. Again, it's very unfamiliar thinking. We wouldn't we just think it's a chemical reaction, but it has to be underpinned by an information exchange. Right. Now, when you get to that place, and obviously you need time to process this and all and all that, but when you get to that place, you then realize so actually the universe being a place of energy carries information. All energy has information as part of its presence, it's a property of energy in that sense. Okay. Yes. Now, when you start getting into that space, you then sort of think, okay, let's think about how humans have evolved over time and how species have evolved. And it's been all about building on top of that basic exchange more and more sophisticated levels of information exchange. Yes. So that in human beings we go from just sensory systems up to highly complex intellectual systems and cognitive systems. The same principle would apply at the universe level. So basically, the universe, you know, would start with this fundamental exchange of information down at the chemical reaction level.

Speaker 2: 14:39

Yeah.

Speaker: 14:40

And over time that would build and build and build into more complex information exchange, which eventually on Earth resulted in the evolution of life. And then through the evolution of life, eventually resulted in human beings. And the human beings themselves continue to build more and more complex levels of information exchange. Yes. Yeah. As I said, from the sensory to the you know high-thinking intellectual stuff. So the whole universe itself is built on information exchange. Yeah. Um, energy that exchanges information. So that opens up the whole discussion then about an intelligent universe. And it's no longer to me then plausible to say, oh, well, that idea doesn't make any sense. It makes sense. It makes sense because we can see it happening already. We just haven't acknowledged it. We haven't understood it that way. You know, information exchange is going on around us. Yeah. And we as human beings have a particular level of information exchange that we are familiar with, but it's not limited to us.

Speaker 1: 15:46

So it's sort of, yeah, because what you're what you're uh delineating is like this is evolution, the pattern of evolution. And most people go, yes. But it's the inference of that, that therefore that system of intelligence which is infinitely more or becomes more and more sophisticated as part of its evolution has inherent intelligence. Absolutely.

Speaker: 16:12

Is it intelligence or intelligent design or just well it just what we can say well it's probably a reasonable assumption if it has intelligence, it had some sort of intelligent design, but that is another step. But what we can say from our experience and our understanding, the universe is intelligent, okay, at different levels. Now, that's totally different again from the quite recent thinking which we've we would have, which is the universe is something that's out there. We happen to inhabit as human beings the earth, and we're trying to understand what's going on out there. But the reality is, sorry, mate, the universe is in here, it's in all of us, and the same principles follow for all of us. Sorry for that noise. No, that's fine. Well, you used noises before, and it's a great fallback, I think. Yeah, you are well. I keep trying to say we're limited bio thinking, which includes language. So yeah. Maybe we would need more noises. Yeah. Here to provide all the hence where art meets science, right?

Speaker 1: 17:14

You should see the interpretive dance I'm doing on the other side.

Speaker: 17:17

Oh, right, okay, cool. Yeah, you couldn't do it in this room, it's a bit too tight.

Speaker 1: 17:21

Um, okay, yes. Yeah. And that, you know, that's a I'm just thinking about, you know, human dominion of earth, you know, bending it to yield to its needs and wants, and then as you say, Earth and then universe as something separate to that. And there's this this the hierarchy of power and control and the sense of separation. And you just yeah, that sort of has been the sort of functional overlay that we've been that's the operating system.

Speaker: 17:56

And it's it's it's our perceptual system. Um that you know that and it's the question is is it sensory perception or sensory deception? All right. Catchy. Another mic drop moment. So and and of course it's not there's no intention behind the deception, but it's simply because we can't make sense of everything. So what do we focus on? We focus on the things that enable us to survive. How do we do that? Well, that starts with imagery, internal symbolism, you know, which through our visual systems that operate internally and not just externally. You know, so it's uh it comes together then the sense that okay, that's the way that we've made sense of what's going on out there. But uh it it's ironic and frustrating a way. We we took we all I think most of us understand that we can only see a certain part of the energy spectrum. You know, we can't see ultraviolet light, we can't see you know anything that goes on at the infrared at infrared level because it's beyond our perceptions. So we've got we accept all these contradictions where on one hand we because it's familiar, we we know that stuff and we accept it. But we don't take it further and sort of think, but what are the implications? We've been so narrow in our thinking. So you think, hold on a minute. So if we can only see one trillionth of the energy spectrum, which is about right, there's a lot of stuff we don't know. Yeah. So do we really need to keep hanging on to our current view of the universe?

Speaker 1: 19:16

But it's fairly well established in psychology that we are masters of self-deception. Yeah, of course we are. And but we just don't follow, we don't want to go, yes, therefore. We kind of go, yes, fine. Yeah.

unknown: 19:29

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:30

Where's my next distraction? Yeah. You know, and it is that sort of to me, it's energy efficiency and sort of look, you've got what you need to to go and survive. And the brain's gone, right, yeah, I mean, I'm in energy efficient, battery saving mode constantly, and this is what. But that, you know, and what was designed to serve us, as we know, often ends up being limiting or a barrier. That's right.

Speaker: 19:58

Um it's not that we want to throw it out and not deal with it, because as I said, that sort of thinking is is brilliant in the world of getting things done. But the question is, are we getting the right things done? You know, and when you take the bigger picture, there's huge questions around that. And is is this the end of a human species talent? No, it isn't, because we've got this whole quantum realm, this whole area of energetic intelligence on which we're all built, you know, below the surface of the iceberg, that we've done so little to understand. And we've used areas like philosophy and psychology to try to do that, in particular, like Jung is an example to really try and grapple with that. But we haven't moved it on, you know, in a compelling way. But now we have more and more, you know, competence in terms of the technology that's available to us to support our inquiry. And like the science area, it's about for instance, a simple example is you know, science is great at rigor, you know, and at methodology and proving things that we can then rely on. Yeah, a lot of this stuff is more in the imagination space, but that's very relevant to science because imagination is where we create the next next hypotheses. Yes, absolutely. Which then science comes in to analyze and test. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We don't want to try and build a world on something that you know that that isn't gonna work, but we've taken the current understanding of the human species and the universe as far as it can go. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 21:23

I mean they feel like necessary bad fellows rather than just Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 21:27

Absolutely. And we've got this brain that can do that stuff for us. Yeah. You know, and yet we are not developing it in those areas. Art does, but art and science don't talk to each other.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Not enough.

Speaker: 21:38

No, it's just crazy. So it's like, right, let's bring it back together then, you know, with a new shared context. And perhaps that's what we've lacked in the past, but it's like the shared context of the human challenge and you know, and the survival of our species. That's a pretty good motivator for getting people together and saying, okay, we need all we can get here.

Speaker 1: 21:57

Yes, I think that's us. I think that's all my brain can. handle in one single episode.

Speaker: 22:02

Well just let me finish it off with one one analogy. Yeah that's right. This is the Colombo moment. Just before I go. So it's like I I try to explain to people um it's like stepping into a lift. Yeah and you can choose whether you're going to go up in the lift. In other words do you want to look at cosmology and the universe or do you want to go down into the quantum world and look at energy you know. But whichever you choose you'll end up in the same place.

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah.

Speaker: 22:32

That's the challenge we're dealing with because ultimately it's all about the quantum universe.

Speaker 1: 22:38

I don't know how many mic drops are allowed in one episode that I'll give you that last okay give me that one good thank you. Thank you. Okay. Great everyone thank you so much stay with us for this crazy ride