Spirituality

Speaker 1: 00:23

TIMELESS. THE HUMAN EXPERIENCE THROUGH A QUANTUM LENS. with me Isabel Soden. And Clive Hyland. We're here talking about spirituality..Im excited. Great. Clive, tell me about spirituality.

Speaker: 00:55

Okay. So we know that the last two episodes that we did, there was some tough stuff in there. You know, even speaking about it was was tough because they're unfamiliar concepts that we were trying to string together in a relatable way. I think the good news for the listener about this one is that this can be much more playful. Because what we've done really is we've put the science blocks in place to sort of say, where is that? And I think in this conversation now it's about using our imagination a lot more. And you know, that's the starting point, really, because in my language, science is much more about deductive reasoning, deductive thinking. You know, it's taking a load of information and breaking it down to uh through analysis and then coming to some conclusions, right? But when we get into the spirituality space, it's much more about inductive thinking, you know, where you're given a piece of information, you can expand on that, use your imagination to see the world differently, fundamentally. So, and I think that's nice. It's nice to have that, it's a bit lighter as a subject.

Speaker 1: 01:60

How does spirituality sit in the quantum realm? How why is it relevant? How does it come to be here?

Speaker: 02:07

Okay. So I think the starting point for me is very much around if you go back in history, um, since we've understood human beings, there's always been the thought processes and reflection processes around, you know, how do we fit in the universe? You know, whether it's Neanderthals and Homo sapiens doing paintings on cave walls, um, you know, Greek philosophers or modern-day philosophers. It's like, how do we fit? Why are we here? And all that sort of stuff. The intimation to me is that we're looking for what do we belong to. It's that something bigger idea that we it's like we want to need to belong to something bigger, um, because that gives us meaning outside of our daily experience. Now, the problem we've had up until now, and what's the polarization between areas like spirituality and science, is that you know, science has only been interested in the provable, and there's nothing we're gonna say today that will make any spiritual or religious belief provable. But I think there's enough room to bring it back to the table for all the other stuff we've been discussing in the previous episodes, because we need to acknowledge now that science is a boundary of understanding, it is not a complete complete answer. Yeah. So, from our point of view, then it's particularly the quantum dimension that brings the debate in. Um, and by that I mean I've been very struck, you know, by some of my own studies around the parallels between what would be a classic religion territory and quantum logic. Um, little things like you know, um omnipresence, which can be talked about in a so certainly in a Christian sense, you know, the idea of God being everywhere and in everything.

Speaker 2: 04:07

Yeah.

Speaker: 04:07

And that's exactly the same principle when we talk about quantum energy. It is all we know, any the only thing that exists at a foundational level that we that we understand. And then you've got the idea of infinite, you know, which is timeless. Um, same principle is applied in in Christianity and in other religions, I think, where it's about this goes on forever, and we don't have brains that can cope easily with an understanding of infinity. So it takes us beyond, and the same thing applies with the quantum logic, you know, that is time is only a creation of man, the universe is timeless. Yeah, so so there are these parallels and they come up time and time again. And so for the first time, what I and and and some others have been spotting is that there's a there's like a common ground in terms of language where it's just about possible that science and belief, spiritual and religious belief, are investigating the same areas. You know, one does it from a from an intuitive belief point of view, and the other one does it from a science point of view, even though I would argue science is just another belief system, okay, which is another debate. But the essence of it is we can explore the same ground and we can do it collaboratively rather than excluding each other. Okay, is a starting point?

Speaker 1: 05:37

Yeah, I I kind of want to spend a whole episode on science as a belief system.

Speaker: 05:42

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I know that's the trouble, isn't there? Well, this associative thinking, you know, that bounces around, so that's why I never know quite know what I'm going to come up with.

Speaker 2: 05:49

Yeah.

Speaker: 05:50

So scientists now could have a basis for having a more respectful view of religion. Yeah. Because we know there is a dimension out there that is everlasting and is everything. And that's a hell of a starting point, right? And you know, one can challenge those things, and that's what these conversations are about. But it really means that religion and spirituality are very much. If you think a lot of religion was born at an earlier time where there was a huge element of symbolism in the way that we tried to understand this place of being a part of something bigger. So we needed symbols in order to marshal our understanding and ground our understanding of what it meant. Okay, and a classic symbol of that would be an image of God, you know, or an image of a you know of other divine beings. My language probably is too clumsy, but you know, the Jesus, etc., you know, um, and Mohammed. It's that type of stuff which enables us, you know, and some level we know those those some of those people actually existed, but a huge element is we need visual symbols, internal symbols that allow us to focus our attention and have something we can interact with.

Speaker 2: 07:17

Yeah.

Speaker: 07:18

You know, part of the challenge in the quantum debate is how can you interact with a quantum energy you don't understand?

Speaker 1: 07:26

I can't perceive.

Speaker: 07:27

Yeah, yeah. So you need a model, a visual model, ideally, which pulls that together and sort of says, this is what you can now engage with.

Speaker 2: 07:38

Yeah.

Speaker: 07:38

Yeah. And to me, religion and many spiritual beliefs are very much around, you know, linking with visions that allow us to channel our belief system.

Speaker 1: 07:51

So the same sense is is put into different metaphors according to different cultures and societies. Absolutely. In order to understand. And then that framework, I would then add. I think there's an interesting distinction between spirituality and religion. Yes. And then the you know, the religion becomes systems with which I don't know, power hierarchies come in, and and then you know, they have a second um role to play, which is law enforcement and you know, upholding civilized society, but then kind of morphs into that. Yeah. Going back to this the source of spirituality and metaphor.

Speaker: 08:34

Yeah, I to me it's like whether you sit in a scientific camp or a religious camp, there's now a basis of saying we should be interested in this.

Speaker 2: 08:43

Yeah.

Speaker: 08:43

You know, and we in certainly in the science area previously there was no basis for that. We thought it was just all about the material world, and we thought we were close to cracking all the key secrets of that material world, and now we understand a lot more, we're only scratching the surface. Okay, so it leaves the door open then to the imaginative debate around so what is the biggest stuff that we are all looking to be a part of?

unknown: 09:07

Yeah.

Speaker: 09:07

And I know, you know, I've talked to scientists in the past and they've sort of said things like, Well, the only thing I believe is in maths, but it's still a belief system, yeah. It doesn't, you know, it doesn't have the same ring, if you like, as a religious or spiritual belief, but it's still a belief system because there's nothing to prove that the only thing that exists is maths. We use math to try and bring it into the human experience so we can harness it, but it's just another belief system.

Speaker 1: 09:32

Hang on a minute. Mass equations are provable by their own inherent logic.

Speaker: 09:39

Well, I mean, I do the real idea of maths isn't in terms of the link with physics, it's all about we have a theory, but we then need to break it down to a mathematical level which proves that it can be repeated. You know, it's something that's reliable as an execution force, if you like. It gets things done. So, but I'm saying even then, you know, math itself is a belief in a set of rules. You know, it's just that those rules are different to the rules that we apply in the religious religious space, yeah, or in the spiritual space. They're more intuitive rules, they're probably more flexible rules, right? Because they're not overly concerned with empirical evidence because they believe what they're dealing with is beyond empirical evidence. Yeah, but it's still a belief system. That's my point. You know, you can't you can't say this is about a belief, this isn't. And you there this there's curious, you know, um, highlights of that. You know, science is supposed to be all about regular rigor and evidence, but most polls show that over 40% of scientists believe in God. Well, how does that fit?

Speaker 1: 10:38

Oh, that's interesting.

Speaker: 10:39

Yeah, yeah, you know, so it's like there's like this is the science, is what I do, but that's not necessarily who I am. And sometimes we lose sight of that. Um, this is more about the who I am debate, and you know, where did I come from? And that's a good debate to have.

Speaker 1: 10:56

Yeah. Do you know if that percentage of religiosity is higher or lower than in the general public in the scientific community?

Speaker: 11:04

No, I don't specifically. I'd have a guess, but it would only be a guess, I guess.

Speaker 1: 11:07

Go and have a guess.

Speaker: 11:08

Well, I think it's probably more, you know, that believe in, but you then in interpretation of God, right? Because I would say I believe in God, right? But it's not. It's it's this belief in a bigger thing, a bigger power, um, that for me has been represented in my education through religious symbols, right? But I think I've grown beyond that, and now I sort of look for a greater understanding. So I don't feel tied in any way to a Christian perspective, you know, or a Buddhist perspective, because I've got huge time for some of the Buddhist stuff. Um, but they all help me to get to a higher thinking place, which is yeah, I need to find my experience of that something bigger. And I found it. But it doesn't fit into you know traditional images of what God is. So it's very difficult, I think, to turn around and sort of say, Do you believe in God or not? You know, can you give us a one-word answer to that? Because what God means to people is a hugely subjective experience.

Speaker 1: 12:11

Yes.

Speaker: 12:12

Make sense?

Speaker 1: 12:13

Yeah.

Speaker: 12:13

Do I sound like a politician? That's avoiding a straight answer.

Speaker 1: 12:17

No, I don't think so. Okay, good.

Speaker: 12:20

Okay, so we can talk about let's speculate a little bit further, all right? We talked about um intelligent universe in the in the last episode. Let's take that a stage further and um imagine what it may all be about. So again, this is to spark imagination and conversation rather than to present an answer.

Speaker 1: 12:47

Okay.

Speaker: 12:48

But I guess in a spiritual space, the ultimate question we all uh ask is why are we here? You know, what's the point? What's our role of being here? No. Let's start from an explanation. Go on.

Speaker 1: 13:02

Well, uh why are we here or is that different from meaning?

Speaker: 13:09

No, no, I think it is meaning, right? Because it's like, what's the purpose of us being here? And if we haven't a sense of purpose, it's it's very difficult to have a sustaining self-value. Yeah. So I think even though we will interpret our purpose in many different ways, yeah, it's all about that ultimate question, what's the point of being human? Yeah. And I think most people ask that, albeit they ask it in different ways.

Speaker 1: 13:32

Yeah.

unknown: 13:33

Okay.

Speaker: 13:33

Is that okay?

Speaker 1: 13:34

Yes, I'm with you. Yeah.

Speaker: 13:36

So if we if the foundation is the idea of an intelligent universe, which we discussed last time, you know, that there's constant information exchange, we we can build on that then in the sense that sort of as life evolved on Earth, it was all about um evolving to explore more sophisticated levels of information, which includes experience, right? Because experience is a source of information. Yes. Remember, I was saying we have to widen our understanding of what we mean by information.

Speaker 2: 14:08

Yes.

Speaker: 14:09

And basically it's almost like a form of the universe experience in itself. So it understands itself at a more powerful and um level which it can continue to evolve.

Speaker 1: 14:22

What do you mean the universe experiencing itself?

Speaker: 14:24

So um if we don't have something to interact with, how can we know who we are? Now, this is um, you know, we are doing a level of human projection here, but that's the only way that we can think. Okay, right? But let's start with that for the moment. So fundamentally, we need to interact with something to understand who we are. Like if we as human beings had no feedback, and it feedback doesn't have to be explicit, right? It can be very implicit in terms of people's gestures and moods and the energy and all that sort of stuff. If we don't put ourselves out there and get something back, we don't know where we are, right? We don't know who we are, you know, because we're constantly looking for uh validation of feedback, you know, in the sense, okay, yeah, I'm having an impact and I'm getting feedback. So I exist, right? It's a pretty sort of deep level. So we need to work with that. And if we are have that need as human beings, it's reasonable to suppose that all started with the universe. That need didn't start when we became human. You know, nothing started with us, we are a culmination of evolution over a period of time.

Speaker 1: 15:35

I think that's such an interesting distinction that yes, we have to see everything from a human perspective, but what we can avoid doing is assume that it all began with our experience. Exactly.

Speaker: 15:46

You know, we're not exception. You know, there's this argument about humans being, it's the exceptionalist perspective. We're not. There's nothing to support the view that, you know, there are different rules to us. Yes, we are a culmination. We've built intelligence at more sophisticated levels, but all that experience, evolutionary experience, we've taken with us. Okay. So why? You know, why do we have a need to have that validation, you know, that information that comes back that helps us understand who we are? This is arguable that comes from the universe itself at a much more primordial level. Okay. So I then couple that with the argument around the wonder of evolution. Okay, and we can be we can so much take this for granted, right? And we get close to it when we watch some of the things on TV and we see some of the incredible things that happen around us, like on David Attenborough programs and things like that. But the more time you spend with it, things like evolutionary biology, the more amazing it is, you know, the fact that what we do as human beings and what other species do in order to survive. And when you look at how that has happened, you know, how does a single cell end up knowing that by division and specialization it's going to create a human body with these amazing brains that we've got. And it's so easy to pass over that intelligence and say, okay, well, that's just the way it is. But then you work out and say, Yeah, but where does it come from? And when you look at evolution, you know, most people buy into the idea of evolution, right? But I don't think there's enough acknowledgement of the enormous level of intelligence it's taken for us to get there, right? So you're still left with the question, where does that intelligence come from? You can't say it comes from evolution. Well, how how did it get into an evolutionary state? Right? So we're back to this whole piece of the universe through evolution experiencing itself at a new level, okay, and constantly doing that. So you come to the why question. And I think there's an answer at that level to the why question, drum roll, right? So this is a Clive Island perspective, right? Because I think we are here to provide that feedback into the universe, intelligence gathering that allows it to continue to evolve. So there has to be a loop that gives us the most recent set of experiences for us to then build that into our intelligence system that allows us to continue to evolve. And if we don't have new species and new generations bringing that information back, yeah, and we'll come back to how does that work, then how does it evolve? It doesn't have enough intelligence of our experience unless it's presented back. Yeah? You with me so far?

Speaker 1: 18:32

Well, I mean, but what you're saying is we remain part of the process of evolution where the universe is experiencing itself and becoming more sophisticated as a consequence of that experience. And we're just part of that process.

Speaker: 18:48

We're part of that process, entirely that. Okay. So I think our role, and this is a fairly pragmatic level, if you like, rather than a uh it's still spiritual, but it's not religious. But it's like I think our role is to learn and to take that information back into the universe so the universe itself becomes more intelligent. Because we've already talked earlier on about an intelligent universe that started off at a quite a primordial intelligence level, but becomes more and more um intelligent, more and more sophisticated by the experiences it gathers. Now, this assumes everything's connected, okay, which is the quantum piece, and it allows us to take information back into the universe. And my belief, and this is just a belief system, is that we do that at the point of death, ultimately. Right? Where did that leap so give me the why it's because basically, you know, clearly there's the genetic piece, so that's the first exchange of information, if you like, in terms of that when we can create the next, you know, next generation. Obviously, at that point, we've already got all sorts of build-in, uh learning built into our genetics, yeah, which we carry forward. But I don't think that's the end of it. Because my belief system, based on this mixture of spirituality and science, is that when we come to the end of our lives, our brains die, but our minds don't. Okay, so this is the way you sat back, then was lovely, yeah. No, so and some people would call that a soul. I think it's a slightly different thing. So I want to stick with the mind idea for now, all right? Where do I get that from? What's any sort of um scientific justification for that? Because the first rule of thermodynamics in physics is you can't destroy energy.

Speaker 2: 20:42

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker: 20:43

So there's nothing to suggest that the energy that is our life force dies when we die. Yes, the body which carries that life force dies, including the brain. Yeah, but it's plausible to say that the energy continues and it goes back into, if you like, goes back into the ocean. You know, the wave returns from the beach back into the ocean. And we take that information with us. And therefore, that fits to me with as like a quantum perspective, which is everything connected, an intelligent universe that is a constant process of gathering and building on information.

Speaker 1: 21:23

So we're in this like miasma of uh accumulated intelligence as mind.

Speaker: 21:33

Yes. And that's where you pick up the ideas of collective mind, collective consciousness, okay, which is you know, people like Jung thought about that, but didn't really have the technology to sort of prove it. And of course, it's still not provable. It's just it's becomes slightly more plausible as a possibility. And again, I'm not trying to convince anyone to this. What I'm trying to say is look, this is a reasonable interpretation in terms of my experience and mine. Knowledge and I encourage all other people to do their own thought processes around this and see where their thought conclusions come to. It's healthy to have the conversation and stretch your own beliefs. But for me, it works, and even if I'm wrong, it has a lovely effect on my life because it makes me feel like I'm in a good place. And I'll stay in that good place until I discover information that shows me that I'm wrong, in which case I'll be happy to change, which is like a bit of a Buddhist principle.

Speaker 1: 22:30

Why does it make you feel like you're in a good place?

Speaker: 22:33

Because it gives me value. It says that, you know, the stuff I'm continuing to learn, continuing to share still matters. You know, that it won't end when my life ends, you know, that it'll carry forward and it makes me feel connected with the species. It gives me purpose.

unknown: 22:49

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 22:51

Yeah.

Speaker: 22:52

The second law of thermodynamics is all about entropy, which is the natural way by which form loses its structure. You know, and in human terms, is you could be talking about life and death. You know, it's the way that our structures that hold us together in the material world as human beings break down. Now that's a natural force, it's like a default force in the universe, which is why things die. And of course they have to to create the room for the next generation, etc., etc. But one of the fundamental counterforces, so to resist that force, you have to have a counter force which presents it from you know totally creating entropy, in which case the whole system breaks down and you die, right? And you're gonna get to that point. We know that, right? These podcasts won't solve that one, I'm afraid.

Speaker 1: 23:40

You die, but the system outlives your entropy.

Speaker: 23:44

Well, the collective system obviously stay in place, but what I'm trying to say is the body will break down, but one we we got on to the point of purpose, which is partly linked into spirituality. And my argument is that you resist entropy by having purpose, you create a counterforce, energetic force, through believing in what you're doing, which gives you the ability to resist that natural flow of entropy that which will eventually result in the loss of your body. Okay? Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 24:19

It does. It's a counterforce. It's a big idea.

Speaker: 24:22

Yeah, it is, you know, because in its you know, I'm often asked for questions about resilience and things like that. I think that's belief is the essence of resilience, and it gives you that counterforce that enables you to resist all the tough pressures you've got to deal with, you know, the life involved inevitably throws at you.

Speaker 1: 24:39

So it's the sort of count, it's the life force. I mean, we're called it's called that, it's resilience. So it's it's it's physically manifest as well.

Speaker: 24:47

Absolutely, 100%, you know. And all I'm trying, you know, anyone can listen to my ideas and say, Well, I don't agree with that. But and that's fine, all right, because I have no monopoly on this stuff, right? But it's like, okay, I hope people can understand how I've pieced it together.

Speaker 2: 25:01

Yeah.

Speaker: 25:02

And it's a combination of intuition, of you know, perhaps some religious influences, science influences, they're all in there. And to me, it's like a mosaic that comes together and creates an image that gives me resonance. But it's a great feeling, it's a deep feeling. You know, it's not just an intellectual exercise, it's something that grounds me and as I said, gives me purpose. And purpose to me is the essence of life. And then we're back to the evolution discussion, right? Why are we here? Because we're discovering our purpose and we're moving forward and we're learning all the time.

Speaker 1: 25:35

What about people who just believe they're here to have a nice time?

Speaker: 25:42

Well, that's entirely up to them. You know, I mean, it's it's their belief system. Um, my experience is that's not sustainable. Um, I think most people get to a point where they have to have a level of inner satisfaction, inner purpose as well. You know, I think there are phases in people's lives. You know, I I can look back at my own life, and I've been you know 70 years plus. So, and there was a huge phase in my life which was about me doing things. We've talked about it before, like a human doing. But now, and has been for the last 20 years, it's like human being, you know, actually working out, not being preoccupied with what I do in the outer world, but also thinking about where is it taking me and the inexperience that comes with that, and opening up that inner experience. So, you know, if there are certain people that can get through life just trying to have a good time, well, good luck to them. But you know, life rarely presents people with just a good time, it'll always present you with, you know, challenges, no matter how much money you've got, how much external success, you know, why is it that you know so many very rich people uh have huge um psychological challenges, right? Because we still have to deal with ourselves and our inner selves in those moments where there's just us, and eternal gratification.

Speaker 1: 27:05

I mean, that that just doesn't exist, and so there will have to be a moment of friction where that resilience is required, and that resilience really is mine from a sense of purpose, which is often what is found when one's sense of self is shattered around, you know.

Speaker: 27:24

And it's it often takes a crises, doesn't it, to for us to really find out who we are because we play the game of success and we present the game of success as far as we can, but we know we'll be found out at some point. Yeah, and that's when we can have to come back to our inner world. You know, I work with neurodiverse people, you know, um, people with anxiety disorders. Um, and we'll probably touch on this more in a future forecast, but it's a huge example of how people have been pushed to the limits in terms of their understanding of themselves and the social projections they have to handle where they're judged, you know, and that's a huge emotional crisis for people who feel isolated and marginalized by others because they don't behave in a typical way. And you know, whilst it's it's very poignant, you know, very powerful, it's also very inspirational for those who find a way of fighting back. And unfortunately, not all of them do. I mean, certainly in the groups I'm working with now, you know, there's at least five people that have actually attempted suicide. Okay, and they've survived, you know. And it's all but you know, someone would openly say, and I don't know if I'm gonna try again. So so to work out where you fit and what your purpose is and who you are is fundamental at those crises points. You know, you can't explain that away in terms of external success because it's the way you feel. You know, an art is the classic example, you know, so many artists brilliant at their expressions, often because they feel the pain. They understand what the pain is. You know, you think of you know, painters, etc., in the past, but obviously all the musicians that have met an early end because they've had to cope with life in a different way, and it was their inner struggles that destroyed them in the end. So, you know, what this conversation does, I think, is it shows the links between science, spirituality, and psychology in a sense. We're back into the unconscious, and the things that drive us, and my belief the unconscious is our connection with the quantum world, the quantum realm. It's the water below the surface, you know, the current that drives the iceberg. And we go back, when the iceberg melts, we go back to being part of that the flow of that ocean.

Speaker 2: 29:46

Oh, I love that idea.

Speaker 1: 29:48

Just on artists, well, I always think when you I'm obsessed with this cultural life, just to pick up another podcast. And you know, when uh great artists are being interviewed and and like probed on the act of creation, so many, and they almost all use almost exactly the same phrasing, but it just sort of came to me, it just sort of arrived. It's like I channeled it, I was kind of a conduit for it, and it you know, so yes, as you the the psychology, art, spirituality, science, it all seems to be speaking around the edges of this same instinct that there is some source.

Speaker: 30:32

Totally get that. You know, I I can relate to that very personally because you know I've said to you before, my brain is mine, but my mind is everyone's. It's there to be shared, and that's the whole point of the exercise is energy. And energy is shareable and I believe timeless, you know. But again, that's back to a belief system. But it is, you know, as I've learned, you know, from being my in my corporate life, which ended about 20 years ago, which was all about doing, doing, doing, proving, you know, proving external success, you know, and and I'm not knocking that, it gave me some great things, right? But it didn't serve me beyond that. Um the thing I've learned to do is free up my thinking. You know, and in the last episode of this series, we'll talk about quantum thinking and what we mean about that. And essentially it's really about just freeing ourselves up and recognizing our own limitations and our own biases that take us to the same places in terms of the way we think. And we need new solutions and new perspectives. So I'm part of the connection with what you've said is the more you do that, the more you feel that you are your mind isn't your own, it's being fed by something else. Then we're into the concept of morphogenetic fields.

Speaker 1: 31:51

I was nodding emphatically into it. Morphogenetic fields.

Speaker: 31:56

So so when we come, and I hope this isn't too heavy, but I don't think it is. I think it's it's it's fun, it's enjoyable. So morphogenetic fields are basically the idea that the universe carries packages and structures of information. Remember, we talked about the intelligent universe, right?

Speaker 2: 32:14

Yeah.

Speaker: 32:14

So it carries those in a way that we don't fully understand, but you know, there's certainly some concepts around that. But in essence, that intelligence is downloaded to us, right? So the human brain, rather than being something that creates intelligence, actually receives intelligence from the universe and allows that to be translated into a human experience. Okay, so the human brain and body become the anchor for the human experience, right? Because without that, obviously the universe has nothing to experience, right? But what our brain and body are only part of that experience, and what we're doing is constantly connecting with the universe, and we become the TV sets that download the pixels into a way that creates meaning from the images we create in our mind.

Speaker 2: 33:12

Yeah.

Speaker: 33:12

Yeah. So that's a lot to get your head around. Can you make sense of that? How can you relate to that or not?

Speaker 1: 33:22

Oh, yeah.

Speaker: 33:23

I think I need some feedback now because I'm pushing this a bit.

Speaker 1: 33:26

Um, I it is not I didn't know the term morphogenetic field, but I am very familiar with the idea that we are the TV sets and we are receiving via our antennae some you know, signal of intelligence, and that is the relationship between mind and brain or the sort of paradox of mind and brain. Yeah. Um and that to me feels like I don't know. I didn't have I had an expectation when we were going into our episode on spirituality that we'd linger on God, but actually we're sort of again at the nature of energy and consciousness.

Speaker: 34:10

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 34:11

And I, yeah.

Speaker: 34:12

To me, God is just another model.

Speaker 1: 34:14

Yeah.

Speaker: 34:14

And that's not dismissive in any way. I set up I believe in my God, my version of a God. And it may not be other people's version because I know my own perceptual systems will influence that, but that doesn't invalidate it. It's not about right or wrong. It's just how we link our experiences to those belief systems, yeah. And and therefore, you know, God being another model is a way of us connecting with, interacting with a power that is bigger than us. And we it's back to the icons, you know, on the laptop. It's it's my personal icon that gives me meaning because it's something I can interact with and relate to.

Speaker 1: 34:54

The icon of a higher power.

Speaker: 34:56

Yes.

Speaker 1: 34:58

Stick that on your desktop.

Speaker: 34:60

Yeah, exactly. You know, uh yeah, precisely that. And it's like it's that imagery, and it's it just opens up our type of thinking. But you know, I very much relate to your comments about, you know, I don't know where some of the ideas come from. You know, I don't know how I've acquired the ability to spot patterns across different misdisciplinary, you know, fields in order to create new patterns of thinking and understanding. And I'm not picking myself self up here. That's that's my point. I don't think it's me. There's something else going on that's using the machinery of my brain to create a new level of understanding for me, and that's a great feeling, you know. Well, like serendipity. We'll talk about that for a moment, okay? Yeah. So I said we can play with this, can't we? So serendipity is like perhaps this is the last one we'll do with for now, but people more and more comment about coincidences, and now they can't believe sometimes the coincidences in their lives. So another experience for me in opening my mind up is the whole level of so-called coincidences that come to me is just crazy. It's like a regular event, you know, where things I'm looking for are presented to me. And that, you know, that could be the next piece of study that I want to want to do that that didn't exist but somehow finds its way into my inbox when I didn't even know that I was looking for it, right? Type of thing. And I think that's perfect. And that stuff goes on all the time. Now, there's a plausible argument that says that's about energetic connection. Because when we're in an open state and we're ready to receive information, it will find us. Yeah. No, there's nothing fatalist in that, right? There's there's nobody like turning the handle and saying, all right, you can have this next piece of information. To me, it's like this matrix of energy, and it means that you're back to the fundamental laws of either attraction or repulsion. Yeah. You know, pull towards or push away. And I think when you're open, when you're open-minded about this information, it has access to you. And in my view, in some way that I can't understand, it finds its way to me. And I have more opportunities for learning and growth than I would have if my mind wasn't open. Make sense?

Speaker 1: 37:25

Yes, it does. I've heard it referred to as synchronicity. Does that yeah?

Speaker: 37:29

Yeah, I think that you know, that sort of principle, you know, and I guess I'm just trying to come up with an updated way of looking at that because you know, often I'll hear people say, Oh, well, that's synchronicity, great, but it's just a label. And I just think I'm trying to get underneath that instead of saying, Yeah, but how could that actually work rather than just accept the label? And I think this is this energetic exchange within the intelligent universe.

Speaker 1: 37:52

Yeah. This is reminding me of a feeling that I have and have really had so strongly at the beginning of learning about the the quantum field, quantum energy. This feeling that my sense of mystery of anything that felt holy or serendipitous, some like the hand of the universe, anything that was that kind of spiritual inclination that I was concerned was straying into the fluffy or you know, with a sort of academic and scientific, but then also really creative um space that I um inhabit. And and this sits sort of in the middle and goes to all of those different things. That's the point. And it it's the coming together of all of those things where it feels like, oh, you can hold hands with all of those instincts, and not only that, you can like you can be with them in a way that will make them deeper and richer, and you can have a more embodied relationship with that sense of being in union with the universe.

Speaker: 39:07

And you know, that maybe a point to finish then is like so, and I haven't thought about this beforehand, so but that presents an image in my mind, you know, the around the table type image where you've got the spiritualist, the scientist, the psychologist, the neuroscientist, the physics, physicists, and they're all discussing the same areas because they have respect for each other's opinions and they're looking for what sh they can share rather than what divides them, you know, and and it's part of that acknowledgement of ultimately we're all connected. We're in it as a species, a species of the universe that's constantly evolving and involving, evolving intelligently. I'm not gonna follow that. No, drop the mic, and I can't drop the mic.

Speaker 1: 39:54

Amazing, thank you. I loved that. Um, great. Well, thanks for uh joining, and I hope you enjoyed that as much as we do. Um and join us for more on time.